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Wow, great article Joel!!
finally, something different.
Loved the write up, though I wouldn't take it seriously.
Is it possible to downgrade this?
Hey Mani - I guess that's fair, but it was definitely written to be taken seriously so I'm a little bummed that you'd write it off. The point of the post is that we're missing a huge part of the SEO story right now - the part where people actually fess up and admit Google is not (and may never be) as rewarding to ethical behavior as we might have hoped and that we can learn a lot from studying what people OTHER than the well known white hat super heroes are doing. There's way too much disingenuous "me too" happening right now. Either way, thanks for reading. At very least I hope you were entertained!
I.LOVE.THIS.POST I mean, if you read this as it was a epic of Black Hat, well... maybe you need to come back school and repeat literature. The style is surely provocative, but that is the style Sean has (did you read his About Me page, it says it all about his "character"). The real message of this post is crystal clear: white hats who complains complains complains and complains again and just cry over the black hat world should stop complaining and crying and waiting for Daddy G(oogle) to fix things for them: we know it won't do it or it won't do it the way we would really like it (and at the same time it would add sitelinks to top pages ads... ops, it is already doing that). Sean is saying us that the only way to beat a "spammer" is to study and understand very well how it does it and counter attack him knowing his debilities. That is something that all the White Hat Batman (Rand, Wil... ) know and preach. For instance, I remember a fantastic preso by Wil Reynolds at Mozcon who was about this. He was saying to us the same Sean is writing in his post and giving great examples, i.e.: the spammers is buying links in .edu sites? Well, be creative and create content, which may be of great interest for the professors of that university so that they will cite it, link it, share it. Or create sponsorships for some University XYZ group, which have an .edu site... and so on. To complain, to not knowing who really are our "enemies" is not helping us. To cry and complain do not solve the problem.
Hey Gianluca - I actually wrote the post, but I'm super thrilled you liked it enough to think it was Sean's! That tells me that I've definitely hit upon the style he likes to feature in his blog, ha! But I love your summation: Study your opponent and go to battle, don't cry over spilled milk and wait for Daddy Google. I think it is hugely motivating to put a FACE to the challenges we have every day. If we can be inspired by Rand and Wil, why can't we be inspired in different ways by really brilliant guys who are beating Google using unconventional approaches? Why can't we USE that to make our work more effective instead of hiding from it? Anyways, thanks for your kind words and for checking out the post.
Yeah, seriously it's a million times better than anything I've written :(
LOL... sorry, I noticed just after I left my comment... Sean, next time put the authorship note a little closer to the end of the post ;) ).
Will do :)
So when you are not living up to your duties as the best looking man in the world you're actually able to string a few sentences together and write a great blog post! ;)
Writing's one of my few talents. Also on that list: plant psychology, shaving, chin ups. Oh, and I play a mean "hot cross buns" on the trumpet.
I love this article. I remember when Kris Roadruck and Rand wrote opposing articles around the white hat/black hat topic. It generated some of the best discussion I've ever seen in the SEO industry. Thanks!
Steven - I loved that exchange as well because for the first time in as long as I can remember you had somebody SMART standing up and saying, "wait a second, things aren't entirely as they seem". Now I pay close attention to most anything I can ascertain Roadruck is doing because he's one of few people who has grown the cajones to think for himself and then vocalize it in an industry with WAY too many ventriloquist dummies.
I'm just going to agree with this comment from the original article: "At best we can label the “dark side” of SEO 'Spammers'."
I love this, been seeing to much information written one way - agree this is a great post!
Thanks Joyce, I'm really excited that the feedback has been more on the positive side and less on the "What a moron" side. Genuine fear sometimes! Appreciate your reading.
I can call you a moron if that would make you feel better but it wouldn't hold much ground :P
*ahem* Sure? ;)
Haha. You're too kind. Let's avoid that, I'm currently riding cloud 9 until someone comes along to harsh my mellow.
I met the SEO anti-hero at a Google Dance a few years back. I guess he recognized me from my picture on my blog, but he came out of the shadows and thanked me for some of my patent posts, and then proceeded to tell me that he was there on a mission to try to hire away some googlers, to share their knowledge of the core algorithms so that he could continue to manipulate search results on a large scale, algorithmic level. That had me wondering if I should keep on blogging about search engine patents. He didn't have bushy eyebrows, or even a beard, and if you saw him picking up some beers at a local package store, you wouldn't think he was remarkable in any way. At least until he started talking, talking about his hidden secret labs in the middle east, and about how he spends most of his day reverse engineering search results. No "Bwahaha's" from him, but I could see it going there. The SEO anti-hero is real. And he's out there.
*claps* Bill, that was awesome.
Thanks, Sean. True story. :(
Did he have a cat? You can't be a black hat SEO supervillan without a cat for all your memes
Z?
Secret labs in the middle east!? Legit. I hope he steps into the limelight, guns blazing. Wonder if he ever lured those Googlers - wonder if your patent posts empowered the greatest supervillain yet to take SEO by storm?
Wow. really awesome story. well, I hope to meet him someday too. thanks Bill for sharing this!
Here's my 3 cents. You don't see a Joker out there because there's no gain in it. Why would someone *really* run their mouth at great length about the sketchy tricks they're using to rank? All it does is shorten the lifespan of the tactic. You can write 5,000 word white hat round ups and 101's and make videos every week etc because the goal just seems to be to build your name in order to... (a) speak at conferences, which leads to... (b) getting bigger clients (and more of them) A lot of "blackhat" is almost not welcome at conferences, or when it's there it's handled in a very... "Here's the sideshow, kids!" sort of way. And black hats *typically* don't have/want clients. So there's no real benefit in being public until you pull the "I used to be a blackhat but now I'm going legit" card and start taking on lots of client work and building a 'clean' rep.
Appreciate your two cents - plus an extra one! You make a completely valid point, there's a danger in exposing the tactics because it will shorten the lifespan. Though, to play devil's advocate (somewhat) Google can be EXTREMELY cumbersome and slow when trying to crush bad tactics. I mean, they still haven't begun to make a dent in anchor text abuse and that one is obvious. I think there's enough creative black hat tactics that they'd survive for a long, long time even when exposed. Further, some black hat tactics just can't be crushed. I really do believe that. I think there are some tactics so cunning that they'll persist for a near eternity because removing them would be like trying to add 2+2 to equal 5. Your second point only makes me laugh because of how true it is. So much of this industry is posturing and self-preservation. Build a name, speak at a conference, get linked to from Search Engine Land, the end. You're an SEO hero. I think that the average person finds black hat fascinating. I think that while it's reserved for sideshows now, there's a legitimate hunger to know how the smart Google-ball-busters are doing their work.
True - there are tactics that are known and still work, and I think we do talk about them in vague terms. Blog comment spamming still works. Using blog networks still works (you just need to keep adding sources if you're using public networks, and be really careful if you're building your own). Here's the rub - all the SEO white knights keep running around and *insisting* that those tactics don't work and that they're all a one way ticket to ban-street. Because that's what the echo-chamber says. So you have to repeat that mantra to get the guest post spot on Search Engine Circle Jerk. To me - that's all the better. Please - listen to them. I'll take all those links instead.
Not only does blog comment spamming still work, it still works WONDERS. Blog networks are one of those tactics that I think will persist forever as well. Squash on blog network, a new one will pop up. You'll be playing whack a mole for all of eternity. I literally laughed out loud at "Search Engine Circle Jerk". Again, a sad picture of what our industry looks like sometimes. Like I said in the article, we need to stop insisting there's only one way to do things. It's never been true, still isn't.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I met someone at a networking event last week who, by all accounts, is an evil blackhat genius. His site's noindexed and the only way he gets clients is through WOM (and he has huge clients). There's nothing in it for these kinds of SEOs to come out of the shadows. As Ian said below, the circle jerk knee jerk reaction just isn't worth it.
Sometimes, as a blackhat, I can imagine you would like to take down a tactic as it's becoming too wide spread and used against yourself. At that moment, outing the tactic as working to dominate the SERP's will be used by people on the edge of grey/white to get ahead, burning it completely to the ground. There is always another reason why certain techniques are being presented as 'working' than just becoming a star!
Indeed. I think I remember Eli at Bluehat saying that was exactly why he outed specific tactics. He started seeing people using them against him, so he just torched the whole thing.
Makes sense. I guess the reason nobody has a problem sharing white hat tactics is that they're SO generic. "Create great content." - barf.
Eli also said he never shared anything publicly that he hadn't quit using himself for at least six months. That's the rub. Joel K wants someone to stand up and prove to all the "build great content and they'll link to you" lemmings that there is another way, but there's no inherent value in doing so for anybody that could realistically walk the talk. Big G has made a habit of whacking the noisy moles.
I think the problem with revealing tactics is that idiots start to use them and it fucks the whole system. Think of all the Facebook tricks that automatically share / like etc when they're clicked, or anything similar. It could be really affective if done subtly and cleverly but as soon as the coding is shared on BHW etc. then everyone starts doing it (poorly) and the whole thing's nerfed by the platform owners (Facebook, Google etc). Not that I agree with any of this stuff, obviously, but like Groucho Marx said: I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member.
BlackHatWorld, BlackHatTeam, ES5 ... and on and on. It's just that the "black hat field" is sort of a subculture that doesn't get a whole lot of press recognition. However, in that field there are absolutely some "big name experts" (just take a look at any of the forums in the space). You've got a lot of people saying you're right, only because they haven't lifted their head and looked up. Sorry, but your whole premise is just wrong. And sorry to "harsh anyone's mellow" :-)
I'm so angry right now.
I recognize it's a subculture - I get that completely. But as far as "big name experts" go, I'd love for them to cross over into the mainstream of SEO culture. I'd love for those who do SEO to stop dismissing black hats as lazy idiots, and I think that a well known persona could do wonders for making that happen. I think that was moreso the point. Appreciate your perspective, though, and that you took the time to comment! My mellow persists unharshed!
The mainstream culture doesn't want blackhats. To put it in perspective, when I spoke at linklove last year I got a call 3 days before my prezo to "tone it down" even though the title was "lessons from the dark side" The people who put on the shows have a vested interest to keep Google and the like on their good side. This makes it difficult for them to promote the other side of the coins. Im sure SMX wouldnt be getting Matt Cutts to keynote if they were heavily featuring how to manipulate the heck out of google. I came up with a fantastic guest post after googles joke of a "premium" analytics platform came out but when I went to shop it around I heard from many people "We can't post this, Google would yank our Adwords Certification".
Hmm.. not at all surprising but incredibly lame and sad nonetheless. Aren't there conferences where this sort of content would be par the course though? Or maybe I'm completely out to lunch. I think the general public IS fascinated by it but there's so much "attaboy" and posturing in the industry that trying to use existing mainstream channels to unveil these sorts of ideas is doomed form the start.
I think Joel is trying to find the white hat antithesis so SEO's can learn more and use tools and techniques in a creative way such as my recent article on using Scrapebox as a tool for link building outreach not just as a tool to spam blog comments. http://www.rootswebsolutions.com/link-building-2/scrapebox-techniques/
Chris, First off, I really enjoyed your Scrapebox article. I bought the program a few months back, simply so that I could have a more in depth understanding of how spammers were using it. Once I explored a little, I found that it could be used as a discovery tool and began using it as part of my regular toolbox. But I was afraid to tell clients or even fellow SEO's because of the perception regarding that particular software. Now whenever I see a new tool (even in the black hat world) I first think about how I can apply it in a non-spammy way!
Thanks for the comment I hope you feel comfortable to share your new tactics in the future.
thing is ... a person who lifted his head and looked up would not consider "black hat field" as a subculture. There are really great conferences about "black hat" stuff and I really would like to participate to one of these. Because I like the idea to get the WHOLE seo picture, and not just a part. then , whatever colors will be, I don't care.
Malone in The Untouchables: "Mr. Ness, everybody knows where the booze is. The problem isn't finding it, the problem is who wants to cross Capone. " :)
Hi Joel, I will add my voice to the chorus of Hallelujah's. In my specialty (Spanish Language SEO) white hat is the exception, rather than the rule. And while the Joker exists, he isn't competing in my arena. However, we have plenty of lesser "villians" Some of my best friends in the industry are black hat SEO's, and their reasoning is that customers in our niche aren't willing to pay enough to allow them to go white hat. So they go black, knowing that they can invest less time to achieve the desired result. And considering that the average oDesk hourly job is like $4 bucks an hour, can you blame them? I chose to go a different route because my language skills and connections from previous jobs have allowed me to make a living without "stooping" to that level. I also see the long view and like you will never compromise my clients (even if they ask me to). Anyhow, I know this is tangental, but try to remember that when you see those black hat tactics on a site, it could very well be feeding someone's family.
Lesser villains are equally valuable, I think! As I said in the post, I've got a local arch nemesis who I watch very carefully. It's inspiring. It's motivating. It's infuriating. And it's awesome. Your point on black hat being cheaper is extremely interesting to me because I think most agencies are in the same boat, only they go gray instead of black. It's HARD to get client buy in for creative propositions like UGC contests, infographics, corporate blogging and most things that fall in the "great content" spectrum. That we don't see more of these things is a failure both of our industry and in client understanding of just where online marketing is headed - that it isn't voodoo or a magic silver bullet. Also love the perspective on "feeding someone's family". Too true. Thanks for the cultural insight!
It's great to see this blog post has created a discussion on here, I have been a little worried lately that many blog posts were being up-voted with very few comments on them. This really has proven that SEO's don't just want to hear the same old message time and time again but also learn about other tactics in order to understand their competitors and be more creative with the knowledge they are learning. Thanks Joel, you've really sparked up Inbound with this one!
Absolutely. I'm hoping to see more threads like this one in the future.
Agreed! More comments needed on here :)
Agreed - lack of comments, esp. on highly up-voted posts is a problem. It seems to me that inbound.org should be more about discussion and learning and less about promotion.
Maybe try out http://reddit.com/r/seo ?
It was added to Reddit several hours ago but it hasn't seemed to have caught the attention on there as it has on inbound
http://www.reddit.com/r/SEO/comments/psgt9/seo_needs_an_antihero/
Just another note from me: if you don't know your enemy you cannot win it. And, actually, Google is more a distract observer which act just when it is really necessary for its own (economic) health.
I loved this post, too, but I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree with it a bit. I think that the SEO industry already has numerous anti-heroes. What we need is less of another Joker and more of a Stephen Colbert. Someone who uses humor, satire, innuendo -- the tools of language, marketing, and theatre -- to expose the hypocrisies that exist in our line of work. A proud, out-loud Joker who games search results leads to Google Dances and Matt Cutts videos and algorithm updates. A Stephen Colbert leads to reframing the discussion and long-term change.
I'm all for that!
**Ian raises hand. I for one welcome our sarcastic overlords.
I got Shurelock covered, k?
Damn I thought I had this covered.
You're House MD, remember?
Ahhh....yes.
In a way, I've also got to nominate Ross Hudgens. That guy makes me laugh more than almost anyone else in the SEO industry.
Uhm hello people, Dr. Pete. That's all I have to say.
...I feel so left out. I need a local nemesis.
You are the local nemesis...
I think there are already a few personalities who are partly that anti-hero. Fantomaster, Blue Hat SEO and even Aaron Wall do not compromise. There is no light without darkness. Especially Aaron Wall is interesting as he fights Google on a political level, outing them at every step.
Love the feisty attitude of Aaron Wall. I see him sort of like a Pitbull let off his chain in the middle of a Senior's Home. Uncouth.
Yeah, also the perspective is much broader. He always covers the bigger picture with all its ramifications not just the little SEO niche part of it.
The problem is that a public anti-hero is unlikely to emerge because many of the most effective black hat strategies these days are borderline illegal (link dropping through open-source software exploits, parasitic hosting, etc.) and, more importantly, are most effective when not made public. I think you can't be a smart black hat and very public about it. The two don't really go well together.
I think my favorite part about this post, hands down, is how many of the shiniest SEO's in the industry love this perspective - it was a bit surprising for me to really see how many people will validate the finer points and power of blackhat.. I thought there would be a lot more hesitation, but then again the best part about this industry is you learn something new several times every day :)
We have plenty of SEO anti-heroes already. Look in your spam folder. Look in your spam comments. The industry has plenty of crap that has tarred the whole thing into seeming to be some black arts craptastic space. What it really needs are more good stories.
Fair enough, Danny. Nobody can argue against the fact that the SEO industry already suffers from a dubious reputaiton; although I think what's pivotal is that you highlighted our need for more "good stories". Without the spam, would we even be able to recognize what a "good story" looks like? Without some counter-force to measure ourselves against, how would anyone know if they were actually innovating or going "above and beyond"? I hoped to highlight at the end of the article that it's the very fact that I have a local arch-nemesis that makes beating him out so rewarding. I like the challenge. Maybe spam is exactly what we need as a backdrop to make good stories meaningful.
We can totally recognize what a good story looks like. Just compare the results SEO can generate in leads or visitors on a cost basis compared to other forms of advertising :)
A good point - but to play devil's advocate again: a black hat strategy could generate those leads and visitors just as effectively as any white one could. If spam didn't generate leads/visitors, nobody would waste time doing it. The question still emerges, "what made that campaign a success?" - and if the only answer lies in the outcome, then the means no longer carry any weight. We need "good stories" that stand as evidence that getting results without spamming the web is preferable to the alternative.
The point was, as I read it, that no one is standing up, owning these tactics, and talking about the results they generate. Instead, we just want to stick our fingers in our ears and insist that its all just crap and it should all just go away. It feels like a very... "No one look behind the curtain! It's all just crap, I promise!" attitude.
Black hat SEO always seems to me an expensive field to get started in. It surprises me that so many 'new' SEO types gravitate that way.
More expensive than "White hat"? I'd definitely have to disagree. White Hat can be just as expensive as black hat, and both are expensive if they flat don't work out. Black hat tactics can be devalued or get you slapped with deindexation - that's costly. But white hat is risky too - there is always the chance your "great content" or "awesome resource" will flop, that your outreach will fail or that your carefully written blog post will get buried in the architecture somewhere - and then that time spent has been more or less a wash. Both are expensive. Both have risks. One just seems to get massaged more than the other because we see it as more sustainable success.
gotta love that domain name! "geek" when translated :)
For the practitioner, there is nothing you absolutely *need* to spend money on to get started in 'white hat' SEO, but it seems that for 'black hat' there are huge costs associated with software before you even get far enough in to test whether things work.
White hat's only "free" if you don't put a value to your time. 20 hours on a content piece that failed is, to me, way more expensive than $200 on a piece of software that failed.
Nothing you need? I suppose not, but I don't know many SEO's out there without some sort of software for rank tracking, some sort of link checker and so on. I guess you could in theory do our job with nothing but a laptop, excel, Google and a lot of determination - but it'd be a lot harder. The other thing, as Ian points out below, is that there are costs to your time and energy and definitely costs to putting together resources and the like.
Sure, but people starting out have time and energy to give, they won't always have $200 or $400 to spend. It's the immediate *need* for cash that I'm talking about.
Ha. Was logged into my other twitter account. The above was still me.